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Post by qposner on Jul 24, 2005 11:18:50 GMT -8
Perhaps my comments have been interpreted by some as "whining." If that is so, so be it. I am not making these comments because I just don't like running with slow fords, I am making them because I acually see this as a safety issue first and foremost. It seems there are people out there who feel because they are in a car that will go much faster in a straight line, that they do not need to watch their mirrors in the corners. This has been a significant problem over the years. However, with the large numbers of fords down there, it seems to me something needs to be done. I am not saying we need to do this in nationals since there are much fewer fords who are, for the most part, all fast (aside from the occasional slower one, but we can deal with one or two). It is for that reason I see split starts in your regionals (I realize they are you regionals) as being necessary. The overall benefit to the group in contrast with the lack of any real negatives (I still haven't seen any legit ones) make it clear in my mind that split starts are needed. You also may find more vees showing up on a grid when they know they don't have to contend with the ego in the slow ford that feels insulted when a vee makes up 15 lengths under braking and tries to get to the apex first.
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GregM
Novice Driver
Posts: 27
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Post by GregM on Jul 25, 2005 11:42:12 GMT -8
Quinn: A split start will only postpone the inevitable confrontation between a fast FV and a slow CF. I'm going to reserve any further comment until I watch the mixed grid start and race.
Dave: Funny, real funny. I am now concerned about LS and the amount of debris we will face. In the past with true dragons teeth in the berms, the fendered cars took it pretty easy. Now where they can do what they do so well, they will dirt-track without penalty. I see another $85 visor in the future. Not to mention the increased number of off-track excursions caused by sand and gravel. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........................
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Post by qposner on Jul 25, 2005 12:01:54 GMT -8
Quinn: A split start will only postpone the inevitable confrontation between a fast FV and a slow CF. I'm going to reserve any further comment until I watch the mixed grid start and race. That is true. However, it will be with much fewer fords. Most likely one at a time as opposed to being in the middle of 10.
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Post by dave FF 50-aka "Harm" on Jul 25, 2005 20:04:24 GMT -8
Quinn, the problem is not 10 slow CFs/FFs (maybe 2). The problem is open wheel car counts as a WHOLE! Whether it's FA or FM or FC or whatever, the open wheel classes have fallen off. The Fords AND the Vees and even SRFs used to have their own run groups, for Christ's sake! Where are those drivers now. They did not go to Spec Miata. The Spec Miata drivers are the "new blood" of SCCA. The Vees and Fords and everyone else in open wheeled cars just faded away. The cars are in gargages collecting dust because the owners don't want to part with all the great memories. Walk by the paddock spaces of the Vees and Fords. What is going on during a race weekend? Everyone is working on their cars. Trying to find another .2 sec. Walk by a Miata paddock space and see what is going on. They don't use wrenches (I don't think they know how), they are beating on the fenders with a hammer trying to fix the scars from "trading paint". The young drivers today get as much joy from racing on the internet (simulations like GT-4) as racing a real car. Check out this thread on the Spec Miata board: forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000749;p=0I'm just thankful I don't drive a old GP or HP or GT5 car and now I would have been combined into GT Lite. Less taste, less filling. How soon before the Vees and Fords get combined into a wingless open wheeled class called FU, short for F**ked y*U. Enjoy the few remaining years we all have left before we all have to buy Miata's or be the only F5 racing in the region. I should not have had that second glasses of wine with dinner. I just fell off my soap box. dave
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Post by DerElf on Jul 25, 2005 22:09:28 GMT -8
Dave;
Pass the wine man and keep preaching to the converted. Often have Mr. Tatum and I ruminated over this same conundrum, how do we get guys whose idea of modifying their engine is take it to a shop and having somebody else put a chip in it for them?
This year the turn out for the Vees is limited for a number of reason, #1 being primarily CA$H. We are the financial "Canary in the coal mine" and it took a big bite out of the grid. Those of us who are still making what we made two years ago are having to work twice as hard, most of us have been "downsized" or are waiting to be. There are a lot of cars sitting for lack of nothing more than motivation and an ENTRY fee. (Sorry Blake, for some of us the entry fee DOES MATTER when it comes to making the decision to go to a race).
The question is how do we open wheel guys get these bums to come to their senses? I wish I had an old PROFORMULA sticker to stir them up!
Wait...I have a vinyl cutter...anybody have one of those sticks I can scan?
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Post by qposner on Jul 26, 2005 7:42:58 GMT -8
OK, I promise this will be my last comment on this issue. I realize grids are down across the board with open wheel classes. I have been racing vees for 14 years and have been watching vees for 24. Clearly, grids aren't what they used to be. However, that doesn't mean you can't have a split start. While there are a number of differing views on the future of FV, FF, etc., all of which are justified, they still have nothing to do with something as simple as a split start. Thanks for putting up with me.
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GregM
Novice Driver
Posts: 27
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Post by GregM on Jul 26, 2005 13:45:09 GMT -8
WOW!! A rant from Dave!!!!!!! Jeez, more wine, not less.
Not wanting to start an eternal thread on class car counts or run group inequities I'll only post this thought. I doubt seriously that the split start or no split start has any serious bearing on car counts. QP excepted of course. Let's leave the dust to settle with the starts until after Sears Point and see how it unfolds.
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Post by dave FF 50-aka "Harm" on May 8, 2007 11:20:53 GMT -8
I felt the need to reopen this thread after the driver's meeting @ Laguna. In case you did not read my post in the general discussion section, I'll paste it in here:
the driver's meeting Sat lunch. Mike Smith, Peter Nosler and Blake represented the BOD and RE. A straw vote was taken re: Split starts. Almost a complete division between the Fords and Vees (I was soooo surprised LOL). The Fords do NOT want a split because we catch the Vees too quickly and they are still bunched up and difficult to pass. It's fairly easy to pass a single Vee or even two without losing much speed, but passing a train of Vees is tough because of the nose to tail racing without room to slip in. The Vees want a split start to keep the *&%@#$ slow Fords from mucking up their race. One Ford in particular feels he is racing AGAINST the Vees and not the Fords (?).
The other problem we face is our numbers have grown (thank God). This is good, but at the same time. almost 50 cars at Laguna makes for a very crowded track. Unfortunately, neither the Fords or the Vees are big enough by themselves for their our run group.
The most important point missed was I did not see any major contact between Fords and Vees that resulted in any broken toys.
Ok, Any new thoughts on this matter? As I scan the results, I see Blake had the fastest Vee time, 45.55 and there was only one CF slower than that, Mike M @ a 46.6. Alan D was faster @ a 45.2. But both of these Fords were in the Vee mix, disrupting things. If they were only a couple of seconds a lap faster, all would be good, right?
Let's think out side the box for a moment. If they are the last place cars, does it matter what class they are in? If they had stickier tires like a FF instead of the ARs for CF, could/would they go faster? I would gladly give them my take offs as I am sure other fast FFs would that might help them shave a few seconds and keep them on the track. And ahead of the Vees.
Or, how about a collection to buy some driver development time from Colin Cross? That should help shave some seconds and keep them out of the Vee mix.
Any other ideas?
dave jalen
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Post by qposner on May 8, 2007 12:13:37 GMT -8
Send them back to the hotel. Kidding...kidding...
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Post by smsazzy on May 9, 2007 6:23:48 GMT -8
Maybe someone could offer to help them with setup issues. It seems to me that if a CF is the same speed as a FV, something is wrong with the car.
Last years ICSCC Portland Race in Sept, the slowest CF was at 1:26.756. The fastest FV was 1:29.520
For kicks, I will also tell you the fastest CF was 1:20.982 The slowest FV was 1:38.764.
So the fastest CF would have lapped the slowest FV pretty quickly, but again, they would have been spread out by then, and the FV's at their limit would not have been slowed in the corners.....
Luckily, we don't run with FF/CF in ICSCC. We do however run with the Sports Racers, but there are normally 2 or so there, so they just blast by us on the straights....
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sweenrace
National Driver
.....rub'ns racin......
Posts: 450
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Post by sweenrace on May 9, 2007 7:47:42 GMT -8
I think a concerted effort by faster vees/fords to work with the slower drivers would help a little. If we could get the slower fords to be consistently 2 seconds a lap quicker we would not have that problem. The fast fords are always going to pass the vees unless we start running a 1600cc! Other than wathcing mirrors I'm not sure what can be done about that.
The other issue that has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with common sense is the issue mentioned at drivers meeting - dont steal the apex when passing. On the last restart I had the apex taken away from me at turns 3,4,5 and 6. That means I was turning into the corner and a ford stuffed itself inside me and then braked. Its just dangerous.
Talking to the Jim and Kevin Malkin after the race, they like me, stopped racing on the last lap because it was too dangerous. Jim was passed by Fords on either side of him entering turn 6?!
Thats a totally avoidable accident waiting to happen.
Ian
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Post by dave FF 50-aka "Harm" on May 9, 2007 7:53:05 GMT -8
Smsazzy, by Sports Racers, I assume you mean SRFs. As has been pointed out in other posts, running with them in the San Fran area is taking a huge leap of faith. They seem to have an inability to see our little cars (Fords & Vees) over their fenders. An the Fords are way quicker in the corners and on the straights, but they tend to drive "wider than their static size" if you get my drift. Add to that the fact that they have about 30 cars of their own, you end up with another parking lot.
I totally agree with the commment regarding something being wrong, but I think we can all agree that in these cases, it is the drivers. And they are NOT novices.
***IMHO, untill the Vees and Fords build their numbers to the point that the BOD and comp director can justify giving us own run groups, the best and SAFEST place for ALL of us is together, watching each others backs (and mirrors). We really need to work together and play nice. The issue is not Fords vs Vees, it's us vs Miatas*** Greg would be so proud, another rant by dave. dave jalen
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Post by brian on May 9, 2007 8:07:12 GMT -8
Sorry I posted to the other subject line. Since the votes are 50/50/ the starts should be alternated as well. I doubt, given the petition process, the Fords could get enough votes to get a regular start! Write the SF board and request 50% split starts!
Towards the end of the race, Dan Phipps was struck from behind, while on the line in turn 5, by a Ford racing with other Fords. Being struck on the outside rear tire sound like someone was patient enough. Scratch another finish and one more broken vee.
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Post by hardingfv32 on May 9, 2007 8:17:19 GMT -8
The FF/FV run group has gotten too large. These large car counts are just increasing the number of pace car events. Given a little time enough drivers will decide that it is to risky to their car and run time to race and the car counts will fall to more manageable numbers. The slow FF's paid good money to race. For a lot a of drivers finding any car to race against is all that is important. The overall races going on are not on their radar screen. Why should it be.
None of this applies to SM. They have plenty of enthusiastic new drivers to fill in for any drivers who fall by the side. Their numbers will be strong for some time to come.
Brian
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Post by qposner on May 9, 2007 8:24:10 GMT -8
For a lot a of drivers finding any car to race against is all that is important. The overall races going on are not on their radar screen. Why should it be. Are you suggesting it is acceptable for a slow FF to believe he/she is racing a fast FV?
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