Dec. FasTrack Rational

[Bruce]

Motion Gordy/Butler - To request waiver for Norpac to run Rationals at the following events:
SFR Double National March, OR Regional/National May, NWR Double National Memorial Day, similar to the recent RM Division
experiment. APPROVED 9-4 (opposed Wannarka, Noble, Creighton, Lybarger)

This is in there. I guess they changed their minds on this. We may lose our only separate National.

[Bruce]

If they do it in May, that makes it a race at Laguna Seca.

[bposner60]

It isn't either/or it's Oregon Region in May. Still the death knell for standalone nationals.

[qposner]

?

What is the deal with this? Not following.

[Bruce]

What it is, is basically the Regionals and the Nationals run together as a combined race group. Each running a separate race together. Not too sure about the specific, I think they are still working on them.

I sent in a request to leave the National alone in March and to use the one at Laguna, since it would give the National guys a chance at Laguna they haven't had for a long time and Laguna usually is not as subscribed as the other two tracks.

[brian]

Bruce I realize you meant regional not rationals but i guess this is the new slang for the race. This is the wave of the future. The regions have been complaining about not making enough revenue on stand alone nationals for years and this is the result. Some feel the two series will be merged in the near future as well. The northwest doesn't have a large regional contingency so the races may not change much. I do have visions of regional FF's messing up the vee national. I probably won't be making the double at TH anyway and doubt I'll travel to the NW this year. I'm getting a new knee tomorrow and it will take some time to get back up to speed.

[Bruce]

Here are some concerns from a few FV drivers:

Bob Neumeister

Guys, I feel your concerns. I have allready run 3 of these (2 weekends). The one at Miller wasn't to bad because there were not that many cars that showed up. The one at High Plains right before the Runoffs brought out every Club Ford driver and SRF regional driver for 4 states - it was a nightmare. I only ran the first day but passed (dangerously) more CF & SRF than ever before and both were going OFF the track every lap throwing up dust clouds and covering the track with dirt. I talked to 4 of the CF guys before and tried to make them understand if I could stay on them they needed to let me by for a lap so I could put distance on them in the twisty sections. In the race 3 of the 4 scewed with me every lap they could until the went off, crashed or I did a bonzai pass- most dangerous racing I have ever done. I'm pretty sure the region saw the event as a huge success becuase of the turn out. I talked to the same CF drivers (friends of mine from Pueblo) after the race and voiced my concerns again and they did not understand - just said "you won didn't you ,whats the problem" !! The SRF's were the ones going off the track every lap - I don't think you guys have to run with them out there. Brian and Dennis know how it was at Miller with them and only National drivers - throw in the regional guys too. *?%#$@!!!*%@#
Nuby, Bob Neumeister 112181


Quinn Posner

Todd,

You have clearly never raced a FV with slower CF drivers. If you had, you would be speaking differently. No disrespect intended, but it is just sort of thinking that is killing amateur road racing.

Then again, maybe we need even more classes. Yeah, that's the answer.

Quinn Posner
202805 FV9

Dennis Andrade

Dear Todd. As a long time FV driver, I am very concerned about the new GCR section allowing regional and national races to be run concurrently. Most national FV drivers have known for years that running regional races are a frustrating, hazardous and certainly not fun undertaking. Because of that; many of us run nationals only. Regional races mean poor driving standards, particularly among the club ford ranks. They are generally difficult to deal with since there lap times may be similar or slower, but hazardous to pass since we must do it in or around corners. In can come down to how brave you are and how much you can afford to fix your car. I see this new procedure as potentially degrading FV racing in SCCA past the point of the bang for the buck justification. The first such degradation occurred with the introduction of F/440 and within a couple of years FV fields were significantly reduced. I understand that fiscal considerations are probably the impetus of this rule making, but how much fiscal consideration will be required if Vee drivers find it just not worth it. At a minimum, split starts should be required between regional and national fields. I would like to see that implemented at the divisional level. At least then we can make a choice which division to qualify from. I appreciate your time and consideration. Dennis Andrade, 54807, FV 87

Dennis

Laury Lundberg

Todd,

My daughter races in the SSFR regional series and after almost every race I get a call complaining of CF drivers wanting to race with the Vee's, taking the "racing" out of racing, and causing dangerous situations.

As you will recall, we had a somewhat similar experience back in the early 90's when Dave Z instituted a class arrangement putting the Vee's in with the FA, FM, and FC. This resulted in racing so dangerous that the Vee run group went down to almost zero for four years. I recall that it was you, as a new competition director, who saw what was happening, changed the grouping, and the Vees starting racing in Ore Region again.

I presume that you will once again be responsive to what will be happening on the track, and not wait four years to make any needed changes.It is fine to say keep your run groups up, but situations can arise, not of the Vee's doing that make it not feasible.

Laury Lundberg
SCCA # 9976
FV # 77

Todd Buttler Director area #13

Dennis,

Thanks for your comments. I do take issue with your comments about regional driving standards vs national but I’m not going to argue the point, each to his/her own opinion J Besides, specifically wrt FF the few CF drivers we do have show up are National license holders, and the extra FFs that show for National races are usually out of towners as well. There won’t be that many (slow) CF drivers for you to try and pass, at least in Oregon!

I don’t envision split starts in Rational races based on Regional vs National license class/entries but nothing in the GCR prevents race organizers from calling out split starts in the supps or the Stewards at drivers(or organizers) request based on number of entries, qualifying speeds etc from organizing a split start at the event. The best way you can help yourself and your class is to show up in numbers that help justify the use of a split start (if appropriate). I think if you look at a typical National, that’s what you will see, 5-6 run groups with the appropriate regional class cars sprinkled in.

For the record, out of 7 National races (3 weekends) for NorPac in 2011, The Oregon July 4th event will be a straight up Double National. All the others will be Rationals.

Again, thanks for writing. Even If we disagree on some points, comments and input are always welcome.


Todd Butler
SCCA Director Area 13
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
503.712.6063 w
503.754.0988 c

[sweenrace]

Bruce,

where did you find this feedback? Is it online where we can read the full thread?

ian

[Bruce]

These are the e-mails that were started between Dennis Andrade and Todd Butler. Dennis sent them to me and gave me permission to post them here.

I know that they are going to implement the Rational race grouping in the Region up north and only want to alert our Region Racers of some of the concerns. There is a possibility of this happening in the SF Region and I hope there is a smooth transition if this happens. Those with concerns should send them to the SF Region Directors and see if you can aid them.

[smsazzy]

Just to be clear, I think the concern is not with fellow FV drivers, as a regional car, on American Racers should be easy enough to deal with. The real concern is a slow CF driver.

If we have a large turnout of Vee's at a "Rational", I think we'll see it sort itself out in qualifying...

[sweenrace]

Putting slow CF's aside, I think its a great idea. I never understood why we took already small numbers of cars in a class and split them into regional and national racers (thus increasing the likelihood of not having our own run-groups). There are plenty of ways to make sure only the best racers qualify to go to the runoffs without having to run completely different events.

As for slow CF's, I think there are two possible solutions: request that slow CFs be blue flagged for the leaders or take our bump-drafting skills and apply them to the CF's to get them out of the way (i prefer the 2nd option!).

[Bruce]

Not sure we can do this in SF Region. This from Cal Club

Rational Event Points:
1. Entry Status: Drivers are required to declare as they register whether they
are competing for Regional, National, or “Maximum Points” (BOTH Regional
and National) points, and will NOT be able to change their entry status after
the beginning of the event.
a. Maximum Points: Drivers who have an SCCA National Competition
License and are competing in a National Class car can obtain both
National and Regional points in the same car, class, group and day.
They must register for their national class, and add the Maximum
Points option during registration.
b. The Maximum Points option DOES NOT ADD ANY TRACK TIME. It
only means that Timing & Scoring will track your position in class
against other Regional cars and other National cars simultaneously.
You will then be listed in both the Regional race results and the
National race results, and will obtain points in each..
If you are registered for the Maximum Points and are therefore competing for both
Regional and National points, your car must comply with the National class rules for
the class you have entered.

[brian]

This goes back many years ago when there were a lot more competitors. Many folks couldn't or wouldn't want to compete with the semi pro racers in the orIginal USRRC, so the regional program was started. Back in the 70's whne I started, FV regionals drew over 30 entrants and were crash fests. I chose to run nationals because, at that time, the level of driving was better and in vees, the cost was close to the same. As time went by I preferred nationals cause i like different tracks and making the Runoffs. I no longer see a reason for two series, especially if everyone gets a chance at the Runoffs. I think the top classes in participation should go to the Runoffs regardless of standard. How many classes should be based on everyone getting to run everyday in their own sessions.

[qposner]

Dec 17, 2010 19:10:23 GMT -8 sweenrace said:

...or take our bump-drafting skills and apply them to the CF's to get them out of the way (i prefer the 2nd option!).

Nominated post of the day. As you probably already assumed, I agree 100%. P3's have a tough nose.

[Dan Wise]

Dec 20, 2010 15:47:45 GMT -8 qposner said:

Dec 17, 2010 19:10:23 GMT -8 sweenrace said:

...or take our bump-drafting skills and apply them to the CF's to get them out of the way (i prefer the 2nd option!).

Nominated post of the day. As you probably already assumed, I agree 100%. P3's have a tough nose.

Sorry to see that an entire class is lumped, convicted, and hung within a single thread.

No one is perfect. I have made my mistakes too, but this thread makes me wonder if some people think they walk on water....

If you have a problem with the way a CF driver (Or any driver, regardless of class) conducts him/herself, go talk with them first. That includes me, #76 CF orange Zink Z10.

Ask questions, ask for their help and attention on track.

If that doesn't work, talk to the stewards, and throw paper. Keep throwing paper until the matter is resolved.

That's how multiple drivers were tossed from group 2 and out of the club.

Yes, I am slow, but improving. I am still learning, I will always be a student of racing. I mind the flags, my mirrors and drive the line. Mike Smith (Coos Bay) and me got together in my second race at Thunderhill in T6 three years ago. Reviewing video, it was clear we both made errors. I apologized to Mike for mine. Mike laughed and told me about his mistake when he first started racing. If you have a chance, pull up a beer sometime and ask him about passing the entire field under a double yellow.....

I enjoy racing in Group 4. Great bunch of guys. I believe the mixed classes have learned to respect the other classes on track for the most part. There are some slow CF, FV, and FST. There are also some very fine and quick drivers in all of the classes.

Are there racing incidents? Yes. I have not seen an intentional punt and hope I don't.

Regards,
Dan Wise