Post by dave FF 50-aka "Harm" on Jul 17, 2011 18:47:34 GMT -8
July 2011 FF Newsletter follow up:
1) HOOSIER R60A TRANSITION: More on the Hoosier R60a and the transition from the Goodyear R430, to add/clarify/correct what you have received already:
A) Firstly thanks to Dave Jalen for the extensive info and photos of his Hoosier tire analysis that he sent out to all of us. Neil Porter and Bill Brooks have added to the pile of info as well.
B) Michael Bernstein regarding camber (with some editing from me): " I used less front camber on the R60 (than with the R430), about 1/2 degree less. It made no noticeable handling difference, but made the front tires last longer." and "As far as the Hoosiers, I run 0.4 degrees camber (vs. 0.9 with Goodyears) on the front. I have never seen a groove (of death, cupping of the inside edge of the tire) on the Hoosiers."
C) There is some confusion about how to purchase the R60a from Hoosier. (If you buy from Roger Krause there is no issue other than you cannot redeem contingency awards with him). As explained to me by Tim Gerhardt of Hoosier, the R60a's are a discounted tire and therefore don't show up on the website and also don't qualify for the "Free Shipping" (along with a $20 'processing fee'). You will have to call Tim at (559) 485-4612 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (559) 485-4612 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (559) 485-4612 end_of_the_skype_highlighting and order them and work out the payment with him. Remember, if you wish to redeem contingency award money it has to be against tires bought from Hoosier Tire West. A set was recently bought from Hoosier and they charged $89 to ship them to Grass Valley from Fresno, which is way too much seems to me (and the recipient). Another set of fronts was sent to me (also in Grass Valley) and I was charged $38. Seems like a lot to me. I am working with Tim to see the shipping charges can be lowered. Be sure to ask Tim about this if and when you order from HTW. Seems to me the contingency award may not be worth the extra cost to ship, especially if you can buy them from Roger at his shop or at the track.
D) Regarding ride height changes due to different diameters/circumferences from Goodyear R430's, the general info suggests almost none at the front (may have to raise 1/8") but the rear will need to be raised about 3/8"" to 1/2". This should keep you in the ballpark as far as geometry and handling unless you have a very sensitive setup. Note this information is in conflict with Neil's first report, but it turns out an error was made in the measurement and Neil's info is now in line with everyone else's. Of course there is always an exception to the rule and Bill Brooks has found it. He is coming from a set of Goodyear R160's (with the lightweight rears) and found the Hoosiers were TALLER, both front and rear, by about the same amounts.
E) An area of the R60a's circumferences that may have an effect is in gearing as the tire is (statically at least) smaller in circumference, but the suspicion is tire growth (expanding due to centrifugal force when rotating) may negate the effect. You might try the gears you have always used at Thunderhill (assuming this info will be used for the next race) before making any gearing changes as you might find little difference or maybe it even works better for certain parts of the track. Peter Nosler did not note any gearing issue when he used 'Goodyear gears' at the last Laguna race with the R60a's. Dave J. may make some gearing changes for the upcoming Thunderhill race in anticipation of an effect, he will let us know what comes of it.
F) The hand-written circumference figure on the tire is done at the Hoosier factory just after the tire comes out of the mold, still hot, and is measured with the tire on a test rim and pressured to 40lbs (to make sure the tire will hold air). As a result the figure you get while the tire is sitting in your garage at room temperature and less than half the pressure will be smaller. The purpose behind Hoosiers measurement and marking is to match up pairs that are at least close in circumference. It is not an actual dimension of any importance to us, it is just there to match up pairs.
G) If you are having problems with the R60a's rubbing the rear upright I will have at least one set of wheel spacers (and possibly two) at the next race. Not sure if they will fit a DB-1 or not but at least we can try. If your rear wheel backspace is around 3-3/8" or less you shouldn't have any problem. 3-1/2" and more you may have a problem.
2) CONTACT LIST UPDATE: Still trying to get the email blast list to work properly, Michael B. suggested using a list with first names in body of email blast to get past spam filters, so I will send out yet another revised contact list with the email blast list upgraded in that way. Michael also suggested recipients put the newsletter email on the "safe" or "allowed" sender list.
3) SCOTT BERGAN is aiming for the Sears Point race in September with his DB-6, the rebuild ongoing.
4) SEAN KELLY is reportedly converting his FC to FF specs, coming soon.
5) LEFT COAST FORMULA CAR BOARD ( norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi ) is similar to Apexspeed but specifically addresses formula car competition on the West Coast with an emphasis on Formula Vee. This is actively used by the Formula Vee drivers we share the track with and is a good place to exchange views with them and see what they are talking about. Dave Jalen has been involved with the Board for some time and is a moderator. Please take a look.
6) SATURDAY RACE (6/18/11) IN-CAR VIDEO from the last Laguna event:
Anyone else have some in-car to share?
7) COMPLETELY UNRELATED but this is kind of fun especially if you like both electric guitar and Formula One,
www.wimp.com/slideguitar/
8) WANT AN ADDITIONAL PERSON/S TO RECEIVE THE FF NEWSLETTER? Just let me know the persons email and name and I will add it to the email blast list. I am sending them to my crew guy Michael Malone to keep him in the loop.
Thanks.
Tom Duncan
TO:
MICHAEL BERNSTEIN, SCOTT BERGEN, DARYL BORDEN, JON BRANDSTAD, BILL BROOKS, RON CHISHOLM, TOM DUNCAN, JOHN HOWARTH, DAVID JALEN, PAUL LUCA, BILL MABRY, PETER NOSLER, KEITH NUNES, NEIL PORTER, DAVE ROCHA, ETHAN SHIPPERT, BILL STEELE, DAVID STILLWELL, SCOTT WARACKA, DAVE ZURLINDEN
1) HOOSIER R60A TRANSITION: More on the Hoosier R60a and the transition from the Goodyear R430, to add/clarify/correct what you have received already:
A) Firstly thanks to Dave Jalen for the extensive info and photos of his Hoosier tire analysis that he sent out to all of us. Neil Porter and Bill Brooks have added to the pile of info as well.
B) Michael Bernstein regarding camber (with some editing from me): " I used less front camber on the R60 (than with the R430), about 1/2 degree less. It made no noticeable handling difference, but made the front tires last longer." and "As far as the Hoosiers, I run 0.4 degrees camber (vs. 0.9 with Goodyears) on the front. I have never seen a groove (of death, cupping of the inside edge of the tire) on the Hoosiers."
C) There is some confusion about how to purchase the R60a from Hoosier. (If you buy from Roger Krause there is no issue other than you cannot redeem contingency awards with him). As explained to me by Tim Gerhardt of Hoosier, the R60a's are a discounted tire and therefore don't show up on the website and also don't qualify for the "Free Shipping" (along with a $20 'processing fee'). You will have to call Tim at (559) 485-4612 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (559) 485-4612 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting (559) 485-4612 end_of_the_skype_highlighting and order them and work out the payment with him. Remember, if you wish to redeem contingency award money it has to be against tires bought from Hoosier Tire West. A set was recently bought from Hoosier and they charged $89 to ship them to Grass Valley from Fresno, which is way too much seems to me (and the recipient). Another set of fronts was sent to me (also in Grass Valley) and I was charged $38. Seems like a lot to me. I am working with Tim to see the shipping charges can be lowered. Be sure to ask Tim about this if and when you order from HTW. Seems to me the contingency award may not be worth the extra cost to ship, especially if you can buy them from Roger at his shop or at the track.
D) Regarding ride height changes due to different diameters/circumferences from Goodyear R430's, the general info suggests almost none at the front (may have to raise 1/8") but the rear will need to be raised about 3/8"" to 1/2". This should keep you in the ballpark as far as geometry and handling unless you have a very sensitive setup. Note this information is in conflict with Neil's first report, but it turns out an error was made in the measurement and Neil's info is now in line with everyone else's. Of course there is always an exception to the rule and Bill Brooks has found it. He is coming from a set of Goodyear R160's (with the lightweight rears) and found the Hoosiers were TALLER, both front and rear, by about the same amounts.
E) An area of the R60a's circumferences that may have an effect is in gearing as the tire is (statically at least) smaller in circumference, but the suspicion is tire growth (expanding due to centrifugal force when rotating) may negate the effect. You might try the gears you have always used at Thunderhill (assuming this info will be used for the next race) before making any gearing changes as you might find little difference or maybe it even works better for certain parts of the track. Peter Nosler did not note any gearing issue when he used 'Goodyear gears' at the last Laguna race with the R60a's. Dave J. may make some gearing changes for the upcoming Thunderhill race in anticipation of an effect, he will let us know what comes of it.
F) The hand-written circumference figure on the tire is done at the Hoosier factory just after the tire comes out of the mold, still hot, and is measured with the tire on a test rim and pressured to 40lbs (to make sure the tire will hold air). As a result the figure you get while the tire is sitting in your garage at room temperature and less than half the pressure will be smaller. The purpose behind Hoosiers measurement and marking is to match up pairs that are at least close in circumference. It is not an actual dimension of any importance to us, it is just there to match up pairs.
G) If you are having problems with the R60a's rubbing the rear upright I will have at least one set of wheel spacers (and possibly two) at the next race. Not sure if they will fit a DB-1 or not but at least we can try. If your rear wheel backspace is around 3-3/8" or less you shouldn't have any problem. 3-1/2" and more you may have a problem.
2) CONTACT LIST UPDATE: Still trying to get the email blast list to work properly, Michael B. suggested using a list with first names in body of email blast to get past spam filters, so I will send out yet another revised contact list with the email blast list upgraded in that way. Michael also suggested recipients put the newsletter email on the "safe" or "allowed" sender list.
3) SCOTT BERGAN is aiming for the Sears Point race in September with his DB-6, the rebuild ongoing.
4) SEAN KELLY is reportedly converting his FC to FF specs, coming soon.
5) LEFT COAST FORMULA CAR BOARD ( norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi ) is similar to Apexspeed but specifically addresses formula car competition on the West Coast with an emphasis on Formula Vee. This is actively used by the Formula Vee drivers we share the track with and is a good place to exchange views with them and see what they are talking about. Dave Jalen has been involved with the Board for some time and is a moderator. Please take a look.
6) SATURDAY RACE (6/18/11) IN-CAR VIDEO from the last Laguna event:
Anyone else have some in-car to share?
7) COMPLETELY UNRELATED but this is kind of fun especially if you like both electric guitar and Formula One,
www.wimp.com/slideguitar/
8) WANT AN ADDITIONAL PERSON/S TO RECEIVE THE FF NEWSLETTER? Just let me know the persons email and name and I will add it to the email blast list. I am sending them to my crew guy Michael Malone to keep him in the loop.
Thanks.
Tom Duncan
TO:
MICHAEL BERNSTEIN, SCOTT BERGEN, DARYL BORDEN, JON BRANDSTAD, BILL BROOKS, RON CHISHOLM, TOM DUNCAN, JOHN HOWARTH, DAVID JALEN, PAUL LUCA, BILL MABRY, PETER NOSLER, KEITH NUNES, NEIL PORTER, DAVE ROCHA, ETHAN SHIPPERT, BILL STEELE, DAVID STILLWELL, SCOTT WARACKA, DAVE ZURLINDEN