proposal for disc brakes

[brian]

In this month's Fastrack at SCCA.com the CRB is asking for a yes or no input on the possibility of adding disc brakes to vees,

Here's the text that appeared in the preliminary notes section of "Rules and Cars" on SCCA.com

"What Do You Think ?

FV
1. #13326 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Disc Brakes in Formula Vee
Based on responses from a previous WDYT published in Fastrack, the CRB is seeking member input on the following specific proposal to allow disc brakes in Formula Vee.
The CRB is looking for a simple yes or no to the following:

It is proposed to allow disk brakes, front and rear, following the guidelines set forth in the Formula First rule set with the following exceptions:

1. Front shocks to be externally mounted. The upper mounting point shall be to the H
beam at or above the top of the upper Hbeam tube, and a maximum of 1 inch inboard of the center of the shock tower. The lower mounting point shall act through the standard mounting point on the lower trailing arm. Spring shocks and linkage activated shocks are prohibited.

2. Standard VW steering box or direct replacement must be used.

3. Standard VW 4 bolt wheels or direct replacement must be used front and rear.

4. 4 bolt VW rear drums or disks may be used."

As I understand this is FFST/FV1600 guidlelines without rack and pinion and without inboard front shocks.

I urge everyone to vote and strongly suggest that everyone cost this proposal before voting. Without doing a lot of prep work and the use of used components, my costing of this proposal is somewhere between $1000 and $2000 with one set of 4 lug wheels.

[Bruce]

Since the cost exceeds any imagined benefit, I do not like this proposal. This proposal only benefits those that think converting to fst, and this is just the first step. I'm more towards converting my car to vintage.

[qposner]

Hell, with the cost of all of this stuff, Im thinking of just going vintage ford racing next year.

[brian]

There seems to be some confusion regarding the status of the disc brake proposal so let me take a couple of lines for explanation.
The proposal has moved from the "what do you think" status to a 90 day period of formal membership input prior to submission to the BOD. This proposal is not a done deal until the BOD votes on a formal rule package.

It should be pointed out that the letter system is not a democratic process. It is a process to access membership's position on proposals, not a direct vote. Since there are no formal controls on letter writing, concise conclusions cannot be drawn from mere counts of positive and negative letters. This does not mean that you should not write letters. The next 90 days will likely define the future for vees and no one in the class should not write a letter. I say anyone in the class because the CRB and it's advisory committees often try to authenticate the letters. That means, having your friends and wives write letters probably won't carry much weight. Neither will your letter if you are not an active participant of this class. This was an issue on the "WDYT" letters just written. This does not mean that you can't write a letter as a observer of the class, it just means that it won't carry as much weight with the CRB.

A few pointers regarding letters: If you hold a competition license, mention it; if you currently own a car and are competing, mention it and remember, the BOD won't really see the details of this proposal until the CRB brings the issue to them so writing directly to the BOD while OK, may not yield much response.

[Bruce]

This was in Fastrack this month.
Write the CRB, your opinion


FV
1. #14415 (Club Racing Board) FV Disc Brakes
Change 9.1.1.C.2: 2. Weights and Dimensions
Minimum weight as qualified or raced, with driver: 1025 lbs;
1050 for cars equipped with disk brakes and/or ball joint front
beams.
Add 9.1.1.C.3.A.12:
12. VW Type 1 ball joint front suspensions may be used under the following conditions.
a. Disc brakes shall be used on the front axle.
b. Lugs may be welded, brackets attached by welding or otherwise, and holes drilled in the ball joint H-beam to permit
attachment of the beam to the chassis, and other components wholly or partially to the beam.
c.
Front spring(s) are unrestricted except that the front suspension lifting spring(s) must be a continuous unit measuring
37.63” (+ or - .25”) in length, and be completely housed inside the torsion spring tube(s).
The trailing arm socket may
be modified to allow a spring or anti-sway bar to be removed from the car without removing the trailing arm.
At least
1 spring pack shall be retained as the primary spring media for the front suspension. Replacement of the torsion bar
rubbers with spacers of another material is permitted. Coil springs are not permitted.
d. Removal or substitution of the shock towers above the upper H-beam tube is permitted
SCCA Fastrack News
August 2014
Page 11
e. The use of any direct acting tube type shock absorber(s) is allowed.
The upper mounting point shall be to the
H-beam at or above the top of the upper H-beam tube and a maximum of 1” inboard of the center of the OEM shock
tower.
The lower mounting point shall act through the standard mounting point on the trailing arm.
Spring shock and
linkage activated shocks are prohibited.
Bump rubbers with a maximum length of 2 ½” may be used to protect the
shock(s)/chassis from bottoming.
Use of related bump rubber packing washers/solid spacers is free.
f. The use of any anti-sway bars, internal or external, is permitted including external or internal mounting hardware, and
trailing arm locating spacers.
The anti-sway bar fitted as part of the standard suspension may be removed.
Front sway
bars may not be fuel test portpit adjustable.
Front suspension Z-bars are not permitted.
g. Installation of 1 ride height adjuster per beam tube, constructed for use with standard VW spring packs allowing
rotation of the spring back, is allowed.
No fuel test portpit adjustment of ride height is permitted.
h. Removal of the brake backing plates is permitted.
1. Camber/caster eccentric adjusting nut may be replaced with an aftermarket nut of different design.
Caster,
camber and toe settings are free.
2. Any ferrous wheel bearings that fit in the VW type 1 spindles and disc brake hubs without modification are
permitted.
k.
The steering column may be altered or replaced.
Steering wheel is free and may be detachable. Steering mechanism
shall be a standard Type 1 VW steering gearbox or direct replacement. The pitman arm is free.
Tie rods must attach
to the spindle using the existing steering arm, a modified steering arm, or a suitable new or modified bracket welded to
the spindle.
Ball joints in the tie rods may be replaced with rod ends.
Change 9.1.1.C.3.C: C. Wheels
for link pin equipped cars
shall be standard fifteen (15) inch X 4J as used on the 1200cc and
1300cc VW sedan as defined herein, or any steel (15) inch X 4.5J wheel within the track dimensions of C.2. Wheels may be
balanced only by the use of standard automotive balance weights (adhesive or clip on). Hub cap clips shall be removed.
Change 9.1.1.C.4.B.: B. These cars shall be equipped with a dual braking system operated by a single control. In case of a leak
or failure at any point in the system, effective braking power shall be maintained on at least two wheels. Any master cylinder(s)
may be used.
fuel test portpit adjustable brake bias bars are permitted.
Add 9.1.1.C.4.D.:
D. Any link pin disk brake conversion is allowed under the following conditions.
1. Spindle and brake caliper must be ferrous metal.
2. The “5 wide” wheel adapters shall be made from ferrous metal or aluminum.
3. Rotor must be ferrous metal, non-floating, single piece hat and rotor design and shall not be cross drilled, grooved
or scalloped.
4. Total weight of all parts outboard of the front trailing arms, less wheels and tires, must not be less than
28
lbs per side.
5. Wheel mounting lug bolts may be replaced with studs
6. All components must remain within the safety tolerances and minimum dimensions established by the component
manufacturer


They will have to recommend what rims to use with the ball joint beam.

[Bruce]

Proposed by the committee

Recommended Items for 2015

The following subjects will be referred to the Board of Directors for approval. Address all comments, both for and against,

to the Club Racing Board. It is the BoD’s policy to withhold voting on a rules change until there has been input from the

membership on the presented rules. Member input is suggested and encouraged. Please send your comments via the form at

www.clubracingboard.com .



FV

1. #14415 (Club Racing Board) FV Disc Brakes

Change 9.1.1.C.2: 2. Weights and Dimensions

Minimum weight as qualified or raced, with driver: 1025 lbs; 1050 for cars equipped with disk brakes and/or ball joint front

beams.

Add 9.1.1.C.3.A.12:

12. VW Type 1 ball joint front suspensions may be used under the following conditions.



a. Disc brakes shall be used on the front axle.



b. Lugs may be welded, brackets attached by welding or otherwise, and holes drilled in the ball joint H-beam to permit attachment of the beam to the chassis, and other components wholly or partially to the beam.



c. Front spring(s) are unrestricted except that the front suspension lifting spring(s) must be a continuous unit measuring 37.63” (+ or - .25”) in length, and be completely housed inside the torsion spring tube(s). The trailing arm socket may be modified to allow a spring or anti-sway bar to be removed from the car without removing the trailing arm. At least 1 spring pack shall be retained as the primary spring media for the front suspension. Replacement of the torsion bar rubbers with spacers of another material is permitted. Coil springs are not permitted.



d. Removal or substitution of the shock towers above the upper H-beam tube is permitted.



e. The use of any direct acting tube type shock absorber(s) is allowed. The upper mounting point shall be to the H-beam at or above the top of the upper H-beam tube and a maximum of 1” inboard of the center of the OEM shock tower. The lower mounting point shall act through the standard mounting point on the trailing arm. Spring shock and linkage activated shocks are prohibited. Bump rubbers with a maximum length of 2 ½” may be used to protect the shock(s)/chassis from bottoming. Use of related bump rubber packing washers/solid spacers is free.



f. The use of any anti-sway bars, internal or external, is permitted including external or internal mounting hardware, and trailing arm locating spacers. The anti-sway bar fitted as part of the standard suspension may be removed. Front sway bars may not be fuel test portpit adjustable. Front suspension Z-bars are not permitted.



g. Installation of 1 ride height adjuster per beam tube, constructed for use with standard VW spring packs allowing rotation of the spring back, is allowed. No fuel test portpit adjustment of ride height is permitted.



h. Removal of the brake backing plates is permitted.



1. Camber/caster eccentric adjusting nut may be replaced with an aftermarket nut of different design.

Caster, camber and toe settings are free.

2. Any ferrous wheel bearings that fit in the VW type 1 spindles and disc brake hubs without modification are permitted.



k. The steering column may be altered or replaced. Steering wheel is free and may be detachable. Steering mechanism

shall be a standard Type 1 VW steering gearbox or direct replacement. The pitman arm is free. Tie rods must attach

to the spindle using the existing steering arm, a modified steering arm, or a suitable new or modified bracket welded to

the spindle. Ball joints in the tie rods may be replaced with rod ends.



Change 9.1.1.C.3.C: C. Wheels for link pin equipped cars shall be standard fifteen (15) inch X 4J as used on the 1200cc and

1300cc VW sedan as defined herein, or any steel (15) inch X 4.5J wheel within the track dimensions of C.2. Wheels may be

balanced only by the use of standard automotive balance weights (adhesive or clip on). Hub cap clips shall be removed.



Change 9.1.1.C.4.B.: B. These cars shall be equipped with a dual braking system operated by a single control. In case of a leak

or failure at any point in the system, effective braking power shall be maintained on at least two wheels. Any master cylinder(s)

may be used. fuel test portpit adjustable brake bias bars are permitted.



Add 9.1.1.C.4.D.:

D. Any link pin disk brake conversion is allowed under the following conditions.

1. Spindle and brake caliper must be ferrous metal.

2. The “5 wide” wheel adapters shall be made from ferrous metal or aluminum.

3. Rotor must be ferrous metal, non-floating, single piece hat and rotor design and shall not be cross drilled, grooved

or scalloped.

4. Total weight of all parts outboard of the front trailing arms, less wheels and tires, must not be less than 28 lbs per side.

5. Wheel mounting lug bolts may be replaced with studs

6. All components must remain within the safety tolerances and minimum dimensions established by the component manufacturer.

[EShippert]

sooooo... forgive me for asking for clarification. and please, im merely asking as popcorn-munching spectator from the sidelines of formula vee. but the ruling went from basically allowing the first brake package (without the outboard shocks and big wheels) to just allowing the ball joint beam and the appropriate discs? why just one end with discs? if i had a dog in this (i don't i don't i realllly promise i don't) i would be hoping for all or nothing; that is, discs entire or none at all. or did i just miss something above?

don't worry, i'm not voting/writing any letters/trying to sway opinion one way or the other, i'm just asking for asking's sake.

[Bruce]

It was an oversight, by either the committee or CRB, that the committee seemed to correct, but still forgot to mention a wheel for conversion with BJ beam. The CRB requested suggestions from the membership and the committee added another option for conversion with LP beam with an adapter and the current wheels with a rear conversion option for both.

[Bruce]

This from the FV committee as per Stevan Davis:

Item #2 - For those of you that were totally opposed to disc brakes in FV, you have been heard. The CRB seems to have, on its own, decided to recall the issue … presumably PERMANENTLY .. or at least for a LONG TIME.

I think this puts an end to any discussion of converting the FV class to Fst, at least until someone brings it up again.

[Bruce]

Further explanation

NEW BUSINESS
Patullo led discussion about Formula Vee rules stability which had been directly triggered by the FV disc brake proposal. This
situation brought up a more general philosophical question about how active the CRB should be in managing stable classes.
In the formula car segment FV stands alone as a unique niche market although one that attracts respectable entry numbers at
both the Majors and Regional level. It is a class that attracts mostly hands on racers with a large part of that attraction believed to
be rooted in 51 years of rules stability. Creativity has allowed evolution in design over the years but not turmoil or obsolescence
driven by rules changes or other outside forces. The design limitations traditional to FV have caused a unique development of
the technology. This is a big part of what makes FV what it is. BoD statement on FV to be conveyed to CRB by Chairman Walsh.
Zekert brought up discussion of the Concorde Plan outlined by Mike Lewis in previous BoD minutes. Lewis is chairing a
subcommittee of the planning committee defining the process and the communication plan to look at the future of club racing
classes with a goal of getting all stakeholders involved and providing rules stability. The BoD expects to review the Concorde
Plan in October.
Walsh solicited feedback from participants on the video conference capabilities. Overall, the feedback was positive and a tool
to be utilized by the BoD and perhaps other program boards as a more economic meeting alternative.
Motion
: Hanushek/Pulliam. Motion to Adjourn. PASSED Unanimous