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Post by InstinctRacer on Dec 11, 2003 10:31:37 GMT -8
In all honesty our tires are the limiting factor. I did a tire test for Mickey Thompson a couple of years ago, and i would say they were by the best tire under braking. I was braking 100-150 deeper than anything else we tested. I had plenty of brake.
Part of the fun of this class is not having a lot of brake, plus if we are using the brakes much, we are going to slow.
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Post by robert on Dec 11, 2003 12:58:57 GMT -8
"Part of the fun of this class is not having a lot of brake, plus if we are using the brakes much, we are going to slow. "
This is just a wild guess, but it seems to me that braking is really important, maybe more so because of our low powered cars. Braking needs to be precise, and needs to be relaiable and predictable.
I watched Lise Noble make a pass on the telivised run offs, out braking a car into a turn. What caused the other car to miss the corner could have been brake related, not just driver related.
I want the brakes to respond predictably, just as I want the throttle, clutch, steering, and shifter to operate precisely, and predictably. Drums just don't respond with the predictability of discs.
A driver that has absolute faith in the drum brakes on an FV, is probably not pushing it to the edge. ;D
I support allowing ball joint axles and four wheel discs.
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RichK
Novice Driver
Posts: 29
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Post by RichK on Dec 11, 2003 13:45:01 GMT -8
" Part of the fun of this class is not having a lot of brake, plus if we are using the brakes much, we are going to slow. " This is just a wild guess, but it seems to me that braking is really important, maybe more so because of our low powered cars. Braking needs to be precise, and needs to be relaiable and predictable. I watched Lise Noble make a pass on the telivised run offs, out braking a car into a turn. What caused the other car to miss the corner could have been brake related, not just driver related. I want the brakes to respond predictably, just as I want the throttle, clutch, steering, and shifter to operate precisely, and predictably. Drums just don't respond with the predictability of discs. A driver that has absolute faith in the drum brakes on an FV, is probably not pushing it to the edge. ;D I support allowing ball joint axles and four wheel discs. What is so unpredictable about drum brakes? I'd argue that you can't push it to the edge withOUT faith in the brakes. The guy who posted above you finished in the top 10 in this year's Runoffs, so I'd say he was probably pushing it.
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RichK
Novice Driver
Posts: 29
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Post by RichK on Dec 11, 2003 14:09:15 GMT -8
I'll add that I'm not against disc brakes, because VW drums are a safety problem due to the poor manufacturing of recent lots.
Paying $125 for Lybarger drums is a great option, but I like to think that the spirit of FV is using stock VW components that are inexpensive and plentiful. Stock VW discs would be fine with me.
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Post by DerElf on Dec 11, 2003 19:06:55 GMT -8
First, welcome to board Colin and Rich!
Colin I know how well you modulate a pedal, I have tried to follow you! Funny how the faster I go the longer the brake shoes last.
I have never found my drums to be in any way unpredictable, I only find it annoying to have to adjust them between every session.
Rich hit it pretty much on the head here I think, the lack of good brake parts forces the idea of switching to Disc brakes. I don't think any consideration should be given to using thing any BUT VW Calipers, rotors and bolt pattern.
If we go to ball joint front ends considerations have to be made for removing the shock towers and repositioning the dampers (internal is cool but I think it add a level of engineering to the cars that is outside the scope of the spirit of the rules) but that is a MINOR thing. MOUNTING a ball joint beam on an existing frame is another thing, but also not any more than your avcerage Vee guy could handle.
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Post by robert on Dec 12, 2003 11:04:11 GMT -8
I guess I don't understand FV. Some say they like not having a lot of brake, indicating the drums are a bit lacking, others say the tires limit braking not the brakes, and there would be no performance advantage to discs.
I'm actually fine with the drums, they give the guy that keeps his drums round and without taper, fits his shoes to the drums, keeps the springs fresh, segments his linings, carefully beds his shoes, etc. an advantage that he would not have with discs.
Most front running Vees spend a lot of money on shocks, and I venture to guess that the consensus is that they are necessary to run at the front.
Why are high tech (expensive) shocks accepted, yet ball joint axles and discs are considered contrary to the spirit of FV?
These are just my opinions, and since I have yet to get my FV on the track, they may very well be without merit.
robert
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sean
Novice Driver
Posts: 35
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Post by sean on Dec 12, 2003 13:33:54 GMT -8
Good point Robert, and not without merit.
I need new shocks for next season. Have you seen the cost of a new set of Penskes? Are they kidding? Yet everyone buys them, even the guys running at the back. This also applies to the Carbotech brake pads. So I don't think anyone can really complain about going to a ball-joint/disc brake front end for economic or technical reasons. In the long run, the only thing that matters is "is it still affordable enough for us to keep doing this for as long as we want?"
As for drum brakes, I hate them. I don't do this because I love working on the car, I do it because I like driving fast. The less (tedious 1960's) maintenance I have to do, the better. I have no idea whether there's a performance advantage one way or the other.
Anyone willing to bolt on a kit, and do some serious testing of this?
Sean, FV17
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Post by eyemcanadian on Dec 18, 2003 21:36:36 GMT -8
GOOD GRIEF! Marty! the starter issue is dead, now on to something else eh! ;D If you think the starter thing was tough with the board, this'll be like trying to fit Dolly Parton into an "A" cup. If allowed, I'd track the lap times VERY closely before I'd invest in a new beam, discs, pads (which Carbotech will have out right away), calipers, modify spindles (steering arms), not to mention purchasing a complete set/sets of wheels. As for unsprung weight, I'd be interested in the difference between the old wheel and the new, the drum and the disc, the caliper (don't forget the caliper housing) and the wheel cylinder, the pads and the shoes, old spindle to new spindle, ball joints to kin pins. Old school? New school? Old school has the FV charm. New school sounds like we're encroaching on FFirst. I'm quite content with old school. I'd likely change classes long before I'd change Dolly's bra. Scott Arthur
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Post by robert on Dec 19, 2003 6:40:02 GMT -8
I got a price of $700 from SR racing for the (new)components to convert to new beam (complete less wheels) and pieces (discs, calipers etc) for the rear.
Now if I already had a car, I would be hesitant to change for the sake of change; but the first time I needed to replace say a front beam and maybe a spindle I'd sure consider the option of converting to a ball joint axle and discs if that option was available.
I like the idea of buying NEW pieces rather than tired, abused OLD spindles, torsion arms, etc.
I know new spindles are available from Lybarger, but that still leaves only worn out and very likely bent torsion arms.
Sooner or later cars will be dropping out as the challenge of both finding and PAYING for front end stuff becomes more difficult.
I don't think there is room for both Vee and first. If Vee doesn't look to the future, the future will be Ffirst.
After beams and discs the motor issues will need to be addressed. Cranks, rods, heads . . . .
I won't be running a Vee long enough to experience the problems I see coming, but I would like to see Vee survive with large car counts and good racing.
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Post by DerElf on Dec 19, 2003 8:57:06 GMT -8
Robert;
What needs to be understood by the folks out EAST is that the reason the West coast LESS INCLINDED to go with the newer parts is simple, we still have ORIGINAL parts sitting in junk yards.
I can't say that for Sonoma County as our last VW junkyard closed last year, but we have a parts dealer who can still get pretty much everything for NON VEE PRICES. As long as that continues the idea of updating the class seems ludicrous to the west coast guys.
Also the prevailing demographic for Formula Vee is either older guys who are fighting change or younger guys who have their older stuff working. Their is also the fact that Formula Vee Drivers are the LOW BUDGET guys.
The guys who could afford to upgrade won't fight for change (figure they will run the stuff that works and then if newer stuff is allowed they will upgrade) and the guys who can't afford to will fight against it tooth and nail. Add to that latter group the "internet bench racers", guys (unlike you Robert, I know you're "Under construction" and I look foreward to seeing the dungbeetle on the track) who will spend more time on the forums then in their garages, arguing points about a class they ran in their youth. These are the same guys who buy boats and never visit them, storing their dreams in the bilge not knowing that neglect has their dreams goin down by the bow.
What some call "class stabilty" the third law of thermodynamics calls "Entropy". The problem is that in the same way that there is no room for both Formula First and Formula Vee to co-exist there is also no room for altruistic endeavor. That gets in the way of the bottom line.
Bottom line is what it is all about.
GADS! I am getting as Nihilistic as a "twenty Something", I might as well go out and get my tongue pierced and tattoo Der Elf on my Bum
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Post by GeorgFischer on May 25, 2004 7:02:18 GMT -8
What needs to be understood by the folks out EAST is that the reason the West coast LESS INCLINDED to go with the newer parts is simple, we still have ORIGINAL parts sitting in junk yards. Hi Marty, FYI, we (on the other side of the mountains) have been "importing" parts from your west coast junkyards for quite a few years. Our local supplies ran out 10 to 15 years ago. Hope you guys don't mind the pillaging ;D Georg
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Post by brian on Jun 6, 2004 4:09:51 GMT -8
Don't wish to start the flaming but will offer a couple of clarifications.
1. VW does not make new disc brake components for H-beam front ends. There are used parts that willl bolt up to ball joint front ends but nothing available for link pin style. So strictly speaking, there are no new VW brake systems available.
2. The link pin front end is preferred by off roaders for it's strength over the ball joint style.
3. There are after market bolt on disc systems available for both style front ends. Which ones are suitable for the rigors of road racing is unknown.
I plan to watch the F 1st folks and see what develops.
I talked to Stan Townes, long time Vee and FF guy, and he said his FF brake pad bill was almost as large as his tire budget. There's a lot to learn before making this transision so stay tuned.
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Post by sracing on Jun 7, 2004 23:13:47 GMT -8
>>2. The link pin front end is preferred by off roaders for it's strength over the ball joint style. << Not actually. They like the wild geomery possible with the link pin beam. The ball joint beam won't do that. (Nor do I plan to go off-roading with my Vees. So we don't need that geometry.) >>3. There are after market bolt on disc systems available for both style front ends. Which ones are suitable for the rigors of road racing is unknown. << Any off road beam and brakes (expecially the ball joint) is more than "adequate" for FV. We at max pull lateral 1.5 G's and we are 1000#. With about the equivelant of 25 races in 3 different First cars, it is quite apparent that the ball joint beam is far superior to the link pin for FV. The rotors and much shorter beefier spindle design makes it obvious that they aren't going to break like the existing FV components. (Plus they are not 35 years old.) Just watching the camber stay put while in a wide sweeper makes it obvious to the driver that something is much better. >I talked to Stan Townes, long time Vee and FF guy, and he said his FF brake pad bill was almost as large as his tire budget. < PLEASE!. This is not the case unless this person is doing something terribly wrong. We did 3 seasons of FC USAC pro and SCCA, and no one had bills like this. The First cars all have the capabilty to lock them up anywhere they want with the stock pads. As pointed out here, they are dependable, and need no adjustments. The original committee car has the same brakes in it that it started with last year. Dave Woodmancy (who is now driving it) says they are fine and has not changed them as of the last run at Grattan. (None of the 3 Formula First cars at Grattan had any braking or suspension problems.) >There's a lot to learn before making this transision so stay tuned. < Yep BTW, All the above being said, I do not support these changes to the FV. It is apparent to me from the board postings and letters, etc. that there will be no consensus and maybe only a 51% satisfaction with any rules changes made. I say let the "market" decide. If the First concept takes hold and Vee dies, so be it. If not, the market spoke. The dichotomy of all this has been pointed out here before. IE: 1000 dollars in shocks, 1000 intake manifolds, etc. but no $600 disk brake suspension. To costly? Jim SR
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