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Post by DerElf on May 21, 2003 12:58:09 GMT -8
OK, so there has been a lot of said about FFirst diluting the entry lists of Formula Vee in the region if it was to take hold. At the same time there has been some acknowledgement that Formula Vee needs to evolve a bit.
So let's start a discussion about that with brakes. Mr. Lybarger has ensured us a supply of durable rear drums, albeit with a price, but is this a permanant fix or a band-aid?
What's the buzz guys?
How would you feel about trying to get Disc Brakes allowed on Formula Vees?
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Post by BradleyKerth on May 21, 2003 16:39:59 GMT -8
I am for it. Disk brakes on both ends.
My thinking:
* There are (largely) bolt-on kits to do it.
* Disks are easier to inspect and adjust (like none required)
* Given that the limitation in braking with the current Vee is tire adhesion, there is not competative advantage to disks. We can all lock up the tires all race long. So brakes or drums should make no difference.
There may be some difference in unsprung weight, but I would not imagine it is noticable on the stop watch.
FWIW,
Bradley
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Post by DerElf on May 21, 2003 17:14:08 GMT -8
The best solution I have seen proposed for getting Disc brakes allowed is pretty simple:
1) The vee community does research into the best way to do a conversion to existing cars using OEM Calipers and discs on a good stout mount.
2) A kit is packaged and made available through SCCA enterprises
I just don't want to have to adjust those darn drums anymore!!!
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Post by Bruce on Jun 2, 2003 18:59:14 GMT -8
The idea of disc brakes is a big negative from me. We would have to change too many things and performance will not improve any. I see no advantage to conversion. Brake adjusting is a very small cost, besides what else will you do between sessions?
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Post by DerElf on Jun 4, 2003 12:06:30 GMT -8
Before or after I dodge your insults Bruce?
(Ow! Don't throw that wrench!)
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sweenrace
National Driver
.....rub'ns racin......
Posts: 450
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Post by sweenrace on Jun 5, 2003 6:34:10 GMT -8
morning all,
this site is a great idea marty!
I'm for disc brakes!
1) no adjustment - maybe its me but i've gotten my adjustments wrong one or twice in learning how to set them and ruined a race.
2) cheap - we raced them in ireland and rotors cost us $10 a pair! and racing pads were $55 a set and lasted forever. incidentally we ran drums on the back and didnt even adjust them! i'm about to refresh my brakes on the crusader and i estimate the cost will be as follows:
4 lybarger drums: $400+
Set of Front Carbotechs: $120
Set of Rear Carbotechs: $110
Plus shipping!
So i'm looking at close to $650 if i can get the carbotechs!
As pointed out there is little if any advantage to discs so why not leave it open to individuals?
Marty - as for the scca enterprises getting involved i wouldnt invite that. Without competition they could set their own price. The alternative is maybe to agree a list of approved vendors?
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Post by DerElf on Jun 5, 2003 7:02:59 GMT -8
Ian;
Glad you joined us on the board!
You figures gybe with mine as well.
Also, as per comments about no performance improvement. That begs the question:
"If there is no performance gained by reducing unsprung weight then why did Colin Champman (probably the most innovative Formula One designer in the history of the sport) go to all the trouble of building the Lotus 72?" That entire car was based on the concept of reducing unsprung weight. Yes Vees currently have plenty of brakes but I think that by reducing the rotating mass/unsprung weight the cars would be even more fun to drive.
Also, being the PORTLY guy around here (not like that skinny Fuchiwake guy) I'd like to save the weight in general.
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Post by norman on Jun 5, 2003 9:18:00 GMT -8
Marty, there you go, comparing vee's to "real race cars" My first point is: Is there a real weight saving in using disks ($ saving yes), a small unsprung wight difference in the front of a vee is not significant or we would all have our shocks upside down and be able to notice the change. Now with the back  I once tried to do the math on the suspension. Got zip and had to have lie down after. Is there a source, for the math formulas for the Zero thing. My second point: If you want a change in vees, never say there is any advantage other than cost. That works since all vee racers are cheap. norman |
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Post by Bruce on Jun 5, 2003 17:59:06 GMT -8
Every one is forgetting that to use disc brakes we would have to change the front end completely. We would not be able to use the king pin system as it is too weak to stand up to the stress of disc system. That means we would have to change to the ball joint and probably have to change our shocks in addition to the disc system.
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sweenrace
National Driver
.....rub'ns racin......
Posts: 450
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Post by sweenrace on Jun 6, 2003 6:33:09 GMT -8
Bruce,
If theres no improvement in the braking performance then surely there's no increase in the forces..therefore the kinpin beam should be fine? am i missing something? (it woudnt be the first time!!!)
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Post by Bruce on Jun 6, 2003 16:40:26 GMT -8
When I said there is no performance difference, I mean we can all lock up our brakes. The difference with Discs are that they produce more torque. and the turkey legs can't handle them. They will twist, That's why the region had discussed adding a brace to them, but then found that the king pins started to distort, and so on. That is why the formula first uses the ball joint front end. I am only speculating about the shocks, but they are mounted differently.
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Post by DerElf on Jun 8, 2003 22:31:09 GMT -8
So I have this here "can-o-gasoline" whut I iz jus gonna toss on da flames.
If the Turkey legs of the link pin front ends won't take the stress...
The link pin front end that cost MORE than the Ball joint front ends.
The link pin front ends which are more difficult to set up.
Then why not consider transitioning in the link pin front ends? Lop off the ugly ole Horns and relocate the shocks. Similar discs on the back and a 4 bolt Type one pattern.
Funny, if we went to a four bolt VW pattern the wheel problem would go away as well.
<Looking at watch> Well I can hear the ole tar pots boiling and can smell the feathers coming...I best be off!
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Post by 3MCRacing on Dec 8, 2003 21:20:15 GMT -8
Well ive never raced FV but off road ive been and ive seen dozens of Baja Bugs with stock king pin frt ends with discs and none have ever broken by the way ive never wanted to invest money into FV because of the parts issue but now with F1st.... well lets just say im building a car ;D
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Post by DerElf on Dec 9, 2003 7:53:30 GMT -8
3MC;
On the West Coast, once you get into the community, parts are not really an issue like it is for the guys in the CenDiv.
Besides, if you invest in a Vee now you will get a lot of years of enjoyable racing (especially if you come up and run with us in the San Francisco region) and have a platform to convert to FST when it becomes a real thing out here (as of right now there is only ONE FST car being built and it is going back East upon completion).
Come on out and play!
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Post by robert on Dec 11, 2003 6:51:20 GMT -8
bruce,
if disc brakes produce more torque, that means they some way improve tire grip, because that is the way forces are generated. Granted a spinning tire/wheel assembly has mass, so just slowing the wheel generates some force. No tire grip, no brake torque.
There seems to be a couple factions in Vee, those that race for fun, and those that race to win or at least run in the lead pack.
If four wheel discs and ball joint front axles are allowed, the latter group will convert "right now" the others will convert as they see fit. It will still be fun.
Allowing discs does not mean drums need be outlawed.
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I once tried to do the math on the suspension. Got zip and had to have lie down after. Is there a source, for the math formulas for the Zero thing.