Disc Brakes and Ball Joint front end

[Der Administrator]

Please post your comments explaining where you stand on this issue and why.

[DerElf]

IMHO this one is pretty much a "No brainer" for all involved.

Problems:
1) Great ugly horns that need to be removed and the shock relocated.
2) Differant bolt pattern to mount to frame


Solutions:
1) Shock towers are removed and rules written to mandate that the shocks be mounted directly to the the turkey legs and function in a plane paralell to the original stock shocks. Shock are free.
2) Differant bolt patterns introduces the option to go to later model 4 bolt drums on the rear or *GASP!* Disc brakes all around. Change in Bolt Pattern eliminates all problems involved in wheel and drum availability.
3) Adapter plates or even new uprights on the front of the existing frames would allow mounting of the Ball joint beams. SOme car will require retooling of the pedal assembly but nothing that a good Vee driver can't accomplish over the winter.

Added Benefits:
1) Actual adjsutment of things like caster and camber without shims or offset bushings.
2) Simple adaptation of 40 years of front end set up to similar h-beam
3) No decernable performance benefits (actually an unknown that needs to be tested)
4) Readily available supply of NEW spindles at prices that do not break the racing bank.
5) Simplified brake set up (no more adjusting!)
6) Readly available variety of brake pads at prices far below the costs of high tech FV shoes...that are availble in spotty quantity at best.

Con:
Was not inscribed by Saint Brundage on the original tablet of old.

[tvracer]

I like the looks of the turkey legs, myself. I am not for much to change in FV as long as the parts can be mfr'ed to OEM specs.

Having said that, except for the monetary factor, I would have no problem changing to disc brakes, even if that means I would lose my turkey legs And that's why I voted "Yes" above.

Tom

[Bruce]

Too much work to change to ball joints. Frame, body, and the shocks probably. Some have a small investment in Penske's. Frame mounting are not the same and the body work definately will be affected. that's more glass work and painting.
Going to disc's would solve the lack of front backing plates and kits to adapt to the current front end are available. The problems that will occur if the brakes are not properly installed are not too serious as long as you have access to the proper equipment.
I consider that brake adjustment as a skill one has to use to one's advantage. I consider the shock towers to be a unique feature of Vee's.
The time will come when things will change. I don't feel like changing just to change.

[DerElf]

Bruce;
No one is requiring the change just to change. The fiberglas work to change the body could be done in less than a day, the metalwork in a weekend.

I consider adjusting the brakes an anoyance. I do it as well or better than most but I do not enjoy it. I do not enjoy $350 brake shoes (when you can get them) or backing plates pitted with rust so badly that no amout of blasting will help them.

Tom;

The Disc brake front end has Turkey legs as well, just no shock towers.

[Bruce]

The front beams currently are still available no need to change.

[DerElf]

I agree that rebuilt beams are still available. I Agree that overpriced aftermarket NON-OEM spindles are also available, ditto rear drums.

That does not mean that I want to close my mind off to any and all potential change.

[tvracer]

DerElf said:

Tom;

The Disc brake front end has Turkey legs as well, just no shock towers.

Marty,

Thanks for the correction. Whoops I meant I like the shock towers!

Tom

[DerElf]

For those of you who are currently paying attention the question of using disc brakes in Formula Vee ihas been raised by the membership and is before the Club Racing board right now. If you want to have your say (yay or nay) now is the time.

Just an FYI for all of you that might be against the conversion be advised that currently you can do the conversion to your link pin front end and the rear of the car for less than the cost of a complete set of CARBOTECH brake pads and a pair of Lybarger rear drums. That conversion would include a set of BRAND NEW, stock ride height spindles (forged).

Also be advised that there is no indication that the matter before the board involves link pin front ends at this time.

[sabre1]

I have to admit that the changeover to disc brakes sounds more expensive than a set of Carbotech brakes as you state. However, if you have the details on those components that would change and their prices, how about providing a listing so we can all see what is involved in making the change so we can make a more informed decision? It would really be appreciated.

The point about expensive shocks is a good one, though someone ( Ron Chuck perhaps) could come up with an innovative way to utilize the current shocks on the newer beam. It also looks like the newer 'turkey legs' have a different motion ratio due to a different mounting point, so even if you utilized the old shocks, they would need to be revalved to achieve the same performance. I also must admit that the existing shock towers look more racy than the ball joint shock towers.

BTW, my 1999 CB Performance price list shows a beam going for $125 and spindles are $50.

I will keep an open mind until I have more specifics. Thanks.

[sabre1]

OOPS;

You did say brakes AND rear drums; don't know what the drums cost, so I have no idea of the total cost you are using as a basis.

Thanks.

[DerElf]

Lybarger Rear Drums are $125 each. $250 + 350 = 600.

The actual prices for the conversion are slightly more than that based on ther CB performance catalog and involve converting a LINK PIN front end, as I said above the conversion to ball joint front ends did not factor into the proposal that is before the board.

It should also be noted that the price of the conversion includes NEW forged spindles for the link pin, not the remanufactured variety.

[Bruce]

I use the German or Italian Drums and they cost only $35 to $40.

[sabre1]

I still would like to see a list of parts needed for the update. Without a list, how can we make an educated decision? Clearly, we need spindles, hubs, calipers and pads for the front end; what else? Do the wheels have to change as well? You mention the rear; what would have to be changed there? Calipers, hubs, caliper mounting brackets, pads; anything else? This still looks to be more than $600 to me. Since I haven't seen any of the parts in consideration, I am wondering what other changes are necessary; previous posts mention fiberglass, and metal work. If we are retaining the link pin front end, it seems to me that the disc brakes are bolt-on changes (unless you have to modify the spindles to accomodate your steering geometry); I'm confused!

This is beginning to get murky, and until I understand the details I am against it simply because it sounds like more time and $ that isn't needed. I don't believe the class NEEDS this change.

Do you know where we can read the proposal that is before the board? All I recall seeing is a query in Sports Car asking the FV community if they are interested in disc brakes... Just looking for details.

Also, the title of this thread IS Disc Brakes and Ball Joint front end so you will have to pardon me if I am confused as to what is actually up for change. Your original statement mentioned the ball joint front end as well. Perhaps the proposal has evolved since your original post...

Thanks.

[DerElf]

OK JIm;

1;) Front End-Assuming the conversion of a link pin front end. You nee new knuckles for your uprights, the ones supplied in the aftermarket kits are upgraded version of the Karmann Ghia Type three knuckles. These are virtualy identical to the one we currently use only they have a mount for the calipers. You will, of course need Type 3 rotors and Calipers, all readily avaialable and still manufactured as they are the same unit used on Rabbits

No plumbing changes required, you can even still use your offset bushings.

2) Rear: Caliper mounting plates, also readily available from several sources and which have no effect of track. Type 3 rotors and calipers (see above).

The conversion can be made in an afternoon and you still have tiome to bar-b-que. You will of course need to buy some 4 bolt VW Type 1 wheels, also still manufactured and readily available, for about $30 a wheel less than the new 5 bolt wheels that DRE/LRE are selling (approx. $50 for 4 bolt wheels).


Performance advantage - NONE

Cost advantage - Measureable

OK Jim, you don't think the class needs change, well neither do I...I KNOW it needs change.