Spec Tires

[Der Administrator]

Please post your comments explaining where you stand on this issue and why.

[Bruce]

There's too much money involved to do this Nationally. I think that doing it Regionally is about as far as can be done. We are lucky in the west.

[DerElf]

Brudda Bruce;

The only complication in doing this on a National scale is that too many of the top drivers (and board members) have too strong a set of tires with particular tire companies. If we give up before we try then we are lost.

We are VERY LUCKY out here on the West Coast, now if we could only get the Cal Club guys to buy into our "Gentlemen/Ladies (Hi Majorie and Laura!) agreement we are one more region closer to a national spec tire!

[robert]

I probably don't know how this works, but spec tires at a regional level would mean that a race weekend combining a regional one day, and a national race another, would require two sets of tires. A set of regional tires, and a set of national tires.

Is that right?

That would be quite a financial barrier to running both races.

A treaded spec tire that can be run in wet or dry, with a long lived rubber compound seems to fit perfectly with the low cost spirit of FV.

[DerElf]

The only financial barrier is one of perception. If you are running to go to Mid-Ohio, bring on the gumballs, otherwise why spend the money? On the West Coast currently there are perhaps 9 drivers who have designs on actually running at Mid-O. At the same time a SPEC tire run enables more than twice that number who might not want to run Nationals but would rather come out and support the regional programs here on the West Coast to run an expanded schedule over the course of the year. Good for them as they save cash, good for the class as it puts cars on the track.

I have heard this complaint before, mostly from drivers in Cal Club who never make the trip to SFR to run with us. In response we set up an offer to RENT them Brand new Tires for less than they would spend on ONE Hoosier Gumball. The offer still stands but we have yet to have takers.

If SPEC tires do not reduce cost then why is NASCAR and IRL going to them?

Speaking as one who has runa vee on treaded tires, no thank you. Street radials are heavy and clunky and make a Vee like tractor. If I want that sort of feel I would buy a goddam Spec MIATA.

[robert]

marty,

I either didn't say what I meant, or you miss read my post.

Doesn't matter if a region rents spec tires to national racers, ( out of region racers) or if they buy them, either way they have to spend additional money to run a regional race, right?

At some time in the past, your area was boasting increased participation, but aren't your numbers in decline now?

Could it be that out of region racers don't want to mess with changing tires, let alone the costs?

I was trying to say I favor a single spec tire for all of FV, not separate tires for regional races.

As far as treaded tires, that's what I advocate. I do not suggest street radials. There are treaded tires suitable, such as the tires used in Australia; a treaded racing tire with a compound that is good for most of a season.

I accept that little, if anything will change in FV, certainly not the tire situation. However, I think my perception that costs will increase for those running both regional and national races (if separate regional only tires are adopted) is correct.

Costs for a regional only racer might be reduced with regional spec tires, but that same racer will incur the cost of "national" tires if he chooses to compete (not just run) in a national event.

robert

[DerElf]

Robert;

To be blunt, I know who runs regionals out here and who doesn't and they are (for the most part) two separate lists. The drivers who cross over between the two are the drivers who can (for the most part) AFFORD two sets of tires. My concern is not for the rich guys at the front of the pack, I am concerned with the overall good of the class.

I have dealt with this question on several levels since I got reenrolled in the sport 5 years ago. Additionally I correspond regularly with racers from all over the country who activly campaign in both divisions.

The SOLE barricade to a SPEC tire is the simple fact that the CLUB (and all the leading proponents of the class) is IN THE POCKET of the tire companies, that it is a GOOD THING for the club to have more than one tire company pouring money into the sport.

You might add to that the fact that the SCCA is less likely to add another level bureaucracy to administer (selecting the tires and policing the compounds). THAT having been said, based on the recent fuel regulations and potential rules flap that might not be the case, gives them more reason to hire their second cousin in Topeka to administer the program.

Those of us who have to manage our actual tire budgets during a season know all these issue and dealt with them in a real world situation. My Tire budget is not a hypothetical point of contention; it is a BOTTOM LINE ITEM in both my racing and my business's books. I know that if we had a national SPEC tire I could run BOTH regional AND national. So I do not really care if some rich guy is going to have a problem with having to buy or RENT another set of tires, I am concerned about MY bottom line and the bottom of line of the (majority) of guys out there like me. If that hypothetical racer has an opinion on such matters he should stop LURKING and say something about it.

As for the tire rental deal causing Prices to go UP. A set of mounted and balanced HOOSIER (good for one RACE weekend so I hear) is between $500 and $600 (Mounted and balanced). A set of American Racers (Good for X number of race weekends, but we won't go into that right now) is $400. Our offer is to buy them back from the renting driver for half price (there would be PLENTY of takers in SFR to THAT price for 3 cycle old tires). If the out of region driver were to want to run his Hoosiers, and assuming he is "Harry Hard Charger" and wants to win that would mean TWO SETS of Hoosiers. In the end we saved Harry $400 buck, he only has to cart around ONE set of tires and he doesn't have to pay for disposing of them.

As for things not changing in Formula Vee, I say that is more based on lethargy and self interest than any altruistic desire to keep the class "pure". I went through the blood baths of the 1970s when we first got rid of fan belts then fan shrouds, I was there when we argued for the right to run safety bars through the empty air that the fan shroud would have been and I watched the birth of the "90 degree rule" in the face of the challenge of the "Belt line" fan shroud covers of the late seventies.

Lethargy leads to entropy, entropy leads to decay. We are talking about evolution and like Jeff Goldblum said in Jurassic park Evolution and change are a violent process.

[btatum]

The spec tire we currently run has saved regional only competitors money, no doubt about it. The occasional national driver who wants to run a regional event has two options. Option one is to run a non spec tire and in this case he/she will not be eligible for any points or trophys (flags included) and would have to start at the rear of the field. Option two is buy a set of spec tires. Most national drivers choose option two because the tires are not very expensive and are not heat cycle senistive in that as long as they have rubber on them they work pretty good. So they can sit over the winter and are still good to use the next time they come to one of our events.
When regional drivers run national events they tend to run their spec tire. Depending on who shows up for the national race the spec tires tend to be 1.5 seconds slower per lap. Either way it all comes down to how bad you want to win. Most regional drivers realize that they are not going to beat the likes of Brian Mccarthy or Colin Cross so they save their money and race the nationals on the spec tire. If someone from another region wants to race a regional race with us they can and they can use any tire they want. I know from past experience that most of them will not win the race no matter what tire they are on. I will even give a new out of region competitor whatever trophy I happen to earn on a weekend if they finish ahead of me. I am doing this to eliminate any excuse these out of region competitors want to come up with. To me if someone from out of the region is going to drive all the way from say Southern California and they want to compete they are not going to show up with old tires. So if they are going to buy new tires anyway why not save $200 and buy the spec tires. If they never come back they have a set of practice tires.

[GregM]

Spec tires have pretty much failed to contain costs wherever they've been tried. Having run in both SF/CF and now FF I can tell you from experience that the guy who is within a finishing position of you in the points is going to change his tires earlier and earlier to get that last 10th, negating the cost containment idea. Been there, done that. When Dale Westfall and I raced for the championship in 2001, we checked each other for stickers before qualifying and the race and we ALWAYS had a fresh scuffed set hidden. Sometimes we played the fun game of changing at the second call to grid. :~)

In CalClub, FF went to a hard compound spec tire to contain costs, in an attempt to draw more FF's out of the garage. Didn't work, didn't increase participation levels, so (tire) costs weren't the issue apparently. This is open wheel formula racing, not IT whatever. We will always have those that can afford to run 3 heat cycles and toss the tires.

[sweenrace]

GregM I disagree! Spec tires do reduce costs. Lets imagine a 10 race season running hoosiers for example at $600 a pop...tire bill is $6000 assuming a new set for every race

Two examples;
Spec Tire in SF Region: we all use it, its not as heat cyle sensitive as the hoosier and goodyears. Becasue we all use it we get a good price ($400 vs $600approx). Its true that you can put a new set on for every race but you dont need to (i won the laguna regional this year on 12 cycle tires) and even if you do, your still $200 up.
Changing tires every race (the rules dont allow more frequent changes) results in a $4000 tire bill for our 10 race season

Treaded Spec tire in Irish FV: The tire is a hard compund treaded tire (it was Dunlop FF tire actually) which everyone gets shaved - approx cost $600 + $150 to get them shaved. I raced two seasons on my tires but lets assume only half a season. Tire bill for 10 race season is $1500.

The problem in my eyes is getting the SCCA and the sponsored drivers to agree. My vote is for the treaded race tire and the big dollar savings that i could put into a nice data logger or new truck or new wet tires or......

P.S. If there was a contingency deal on offer equivalent to hoosiers (2 tyres for win, 1 for 2nd) i think the majority of national drivers would not lose out. I reckon less than 10 drivers nationally get totally free tires and most of those are at the runoffs.

[markfvee]

And my reason for agreeing to spec tires...

First why I might not. Did try American racers at Laguna many years ago. Harder tire required a drifting driving style that was not to my likeing.
However, cheaper tires are cheaper tires. My costs will go down. Even the guy who puts new tires on every session should save money. He would do it on any tire. The only way that would not work is if the "choosen" tire was significantly better in the first heat cycle. Then the guy using new tires every session could "buy" an advantage. Solution, don't pick a tire like that.
As to treaded versus slicks. In 9 years of racing in CA I have never put my rains on. I have run in 4 rain races. Even won one on slicks in the rain. Willow has so much grade water doesn't pool much. Not an issue here. I am sure it is somewhere else.
So for a rain race I don't care. At Laguna a rain race declaration allows any tire.

I would like a more balanced playing field for the have's and have nots. A spec tire would eliminate the "free" tires to the front runners. Once tires are no longer free, I expect they might be open to less expense. Hard to sell them on cheaper when they have free.

I would like the choice of wide versus narrow fronts. It helps me balance my car. But I would give that up if it got more FV's on the track.

I also would like it if the FV group proposed, tested and came to a conclusion. I do not want the SCCA to take over the issue, select a tire, ake it available through them only (for certification reason's only) and then make money. Don't need SRF rules for FV.

Anything to get more FV's on track so I didn't have to dodge FC's FM's and FnA's not to mention ASR, CSR, DSR, S2000's.

I stopped running regionals with SCCA due to this and we now have it at the National level.

Mark Fischer
FV#77