Formula First

[Der Administrator]

Please post your comments explaining where you stand on this issue and why.

[robert]

Formula First seems along way off, both geographically and time wise for most of us, but as the issues facing FV are solved one by one, in the end there will be little difference between the two classes.

[DerElf]

I would agree with you in some respects Robert. barring the question of "over tiring" an under powered car. At the same time there has to be a more measured approach to the changes as vee people are like parrots, they don't take to change well.

[robert]

Marty,

I think the largest (maybe only) mistake FST made was the wheels and tires they selected.

The wide tires add plenty of aero drag, and unlike the narrow FV tires that seem pretty tolerant of camber, with the rear swing axles and trailing arm front ends, it will be a challenge to keep the wide tire's contact patch flat on the track

I don't think pretty cars or fat tires are the major draw for FV or FST. At least in my case it is MONEY.

robert

[DerElf]

Robert;

I am pretty well on the record against the Ford tires Because:

1) From my personal experience I know that they add undue stress to a DIFF when added to a swing axle (Spent several years as a Dune Buggy Mechanic and saw why you find Chromoly Diffs in Dune Buggies & Hot VWs).

2) Even with the increased track they effectively DOUBLE the Rotating Frontal Area of a Formula Vee. Frontal area BAD, ROTATING frontal area DOUBLE BAD

3) They cost 25% more and I have yet to have my own PERSONAL proof that they last that much longer.

4) PERSONAL AESTHETIC COMMENT: I think that the tires used on the Australia FST Cars are more contemporary and attractive. From a design standpoint I think the removal of the shock towers does a helluva lot more to improve the lines of a Formula Vee than any fat seventies style ties, no matter how much I still love the look of the 1970s F1 cars.

Tires are the thing in all this that created a schism between the CenDiv FIRST Guys and the West Coast FIRST guys (Yes, there are/ were some).

I was on the original mailing list for Formula First, I spoke for a year with Bill Bonow on the OLD Topica mailing list (Before the Interchange existed) before he started on the "committee car". In fact I wrote up a set of rules for San Francisco Region FIRST cars before the cenDiv guys did, based on the Australian Rules and in consultation with Blake Tatum and Ron Chuck. Blake presented them to the San Francisco Region, they were subsequently approved for the cars to run WITH the Formula B cars in group 7 (Now gone, but not forgotten). I even got Mysterian Race cars interested in class (I have the molds for a Formula First Body currently residing in my shop).

Then the Tire thing happened. In addition I was locally almost tarred and feathered for even CONSIDERING the concept of changing the FV rules and was cowed into silence, sad to say.

I will say I support the efforts of the FIRST guys in CENDIV though. Even though some of the people in Formula Vee perceive them as the enemy their efforts are helping out both classes..

1) They are FORCING people to talk about changes that previously were TABOO.

2) They are actually giving all of us a "safety Net" if SCCA moves even further against the class, not likely but NOT impossible. As long as they stick to the concept of FIRST being an upgraded Vee and the path to conversion is kept clear and simple.

3) They embody the spirit of what originally MADE Formula Vee what it is. Many of the people involved in the class these days are "customer" racers, they work on their car to some extent but do not think beyond simple maintenance or components. The original Vee guys thought NOTHING of cutting their cars in half and redesigning them over the winter if they thought it would give them an advantage. Most people see DSR as the last bastion of "Tinkerers" in the SCCA, what they seem to forget is that Formula Vee used to give it a run for its money.

I will add that anyone who goes regularly to the FV Interchange has probably noticed how quiet it has gotten since the Formula First Message board has started up. I think that is because all the guys who are PROACTIVE moved over to that board, leaving a bunch of reactionaries with nothing to react to.

So, am I ready to convert to Formula First? HELL NO! I am a racer and there are no other FIRST cars to race against. Also I have limited funds. If the latter condition were to change I will admit that I would consider building a FIRST car to San Francisco Region approved specifications. I think it would be a real hoot, both to build and to drive. Personally I would like to see what sort of lap times it could do at Sear Point.

ONE OTHER NOTE: To all the people who will say that Formula First will “cannibalize” the ranks of the Formula Vee world;
I would worry more about what SPEC Miata is doing rather than what “Damage” Formula First is going to do. The fact is that it is back to the point (if it ever truly left it) where Formula Vee is the most cost effective entry level class (short of Bomber stockers) but the MIATA class is growing for a number of reasons.

I would worry less about formula cars and worry more about fenders.

[Bruce]

I'm totally against the first effort.

[Der Administrator]

I know this Bruce and it is something we have agreed to disagree on.

Consider me as Martin Luther with my hammer in my hand pounding on the door. I will be racing my FORMULA VEE again next year but I also am looking towards the future.

And I am keeping an open mind.

[tvracer]

Bruce,

From my other posts, you and I seem to agree most of the time on not changing the class, except in small steps.

But why the concern on not liking Formula First? I can understand if you think it will be a threat to FV. And it probably is. But if it is its own class that will be existing on its own, more power to them.

Except those tires/wheels...yuk!

Tom

[sracing]

derelf said:

Robert;

I am pretty well on the record against the Ford tires Because:

1) From my personal experience I know that they add undue stress to a DIFF when added to a swing axle (Spent several years as a Dune Buggy Mechanic and saw why you find Chromoly Diffs in Dune Buggies & Hot VWs).

2) Even with the increased track they effectively DOUBLE the Rotating Frontal Area of a Formula Vee. Frontal area BAD, ROTATING frontal area DOUBLE BAD

3) They cost 25% more and I have yet to have my own PERSONAL proof that they last that much longer.

Robert,
Thanks for your support of the efforts of the group here in the CenDiv re: Formula First.

However, I don't agree with or understand #1.
Same with number 2. Frontal area is bad, all things being equal, but why is rotating worse?

Number 3, appears to be clearly wrong based upon lots of track experience. We have yet to use up a set of the wide tires in 1 school with a renter and 3 races at speed. The LM-1, Committee car and BRD are getting 5 to 6 weekends on them. The Jacer had 2 races and a school on them before they went onto the BRD.

The Firsts currently handle about the same as a FV in the corners based upon the drivers comments so far.

It is certainly arguable whether the Hoosier CFF was the correct choice considering everything, but based upon costs they were a good choice.

Jim
SR

[sean]

Why is rotating worse? Well, it's bad enough to increase the frontal area, but to increase it with a rotating mass that's rotating in the OPPOSITE direction of the air flowing over it is doubly bad. Not only are you making the air go up and over the mass, the forward spin is causing all kinds of bad aero (resulting in more drag) over the top of the wheel.
Wider tires increases both the frontal area AND the drag coefficient.
eg. - without changing anything else, putting fenders on any formula car will result in a significant increase in top speed. Even if that increased the overall frontal area.

I agree that the loss of shock towers has more impact on 'coolness' than the wide tires. Even if only slightly. Those ford tires look like too much, but I realize there really isn't an in-between choice without a custom order.

Do the Australian tires have treads? Because a formula car with treads looks like it should be on a trailer behind the tow vehicle, not a racetrack. IMHO.

[problemchild]

I would not have chosen these tires ..... but these spec tires are the best part about FST!