Run group Etiquette

[Der Administrator]

The question was lifted from one of Quinn Posner's posts but it is not the first time I have heard this statement.

It's winter, cars are up on blocks (or in pieces) and we have time to discuss possible changes in the group in a POSITIVE MANNER that can make next season even better.

Let the games begin.

[DerElf]

Speaking as someone who has had more than his share of run ins with back marker Fords in the past I have a pretty strong opinion here...be afraid.

Comparing lap times to quantify competition in this case is like saying that knives and 45s are equally as deadly. If that were true the term "Just like a <insert derogatory epithet> to bring a knife to a gunfight".

In the past two years as I have been reduced to spectator and paddock hanger-on I have heard over and over about front runner/mid-pack Vee races being broken up by mid-pack/backmarker Fords that seem to think the lap time is the final arbiter of who races who. I have also been on the RECEIVING END of a couple of HARD lovetaps from these same Ford drivers.

Please pass this on to them:If a Ford and a Vee Collide the FORD will LOSE! Fer chrissake Vees are not far off from Class 12 Off Road racers, we don't bend.

My question remains "How do we police this"?

[dave FF 50-aka "Harm"]

I noticed Martin used the phrase " in a POSITIVE MANNER".
That said, I have this quaint thought that I am racing when ever I step into the ring, ah, I mean, go out onto the track.
I completely agree that the best racing is betwenn the cars in your own class. A high hp poorly driven car is a giant PIA. I have raced national races with FM, FC, FA and they blow by on the straight and park in the corner if poorly driven. Sound familar?
It's not only our group, check out this thread (very long) on the Spec Miata site called "How slow is TOO slow?"

forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000414;p=0

I do not have answer to OUR (all of ours) problem. Do we enforce the 120% qualifying rule? This is a hobby not a profession. Do we exclude the clueless?
dave

[Vracer]

No I do not think that we should exclude the clueless. I think we should first try and help with encouragement and advice, and possibly help with mechanical set up etc. in order to provide every opportunity to get faster. However, if they just can't seem to get it, I say OSB (other sports beckon).

[qposner]

OSB and perhaps get them in a vee. There are alot of good ford drivers, but there are those that will never learn to drive due to the HP involved with a ford and their dependence on it (although there is a relative lack of HP compared with FA, etc.). Either way, there shouldn't be much tolerance for those drivers who just don't get it. The stewards need to think about that instead of spending their time hassling people like Brian. Again, this is a hot issue for me.

[qposner]

BTW---At the Runoffs, Lybarger told us that he has told ford drivers in his region they will not be allowed to run if they didn't comply with the 120% rule. To him, it was clearly a safety issue.

[brian]

Is that 120% of the fastest Ford? Frankly, it should be 110%. I've tried to talk to troublesome drivers, a certain F500 comes to mind, and most are just as clueless in the pits as they are on the track. The point is: it's obvious to me they are over their heads if they run that slowly AND don't know how to be aware of other cars around them. That's dangerous.

One approach that can be used is to protest a repeat offender and use unsafe driving as the basis. It won't matter if they rule against you, the stewards hate to see that reason on a protest because it goes on the "Race Report" that is sent to Topeka. Alll the "Race Reports" are reviewed by the Risk Department and they don't like to see that issue anywhere.

[sabre1]

I agree this is a difficult issue with no obvious easy answers and it would be in the best interests of everyone to try and find a solution. I do not like the OSB (other sports beckon) inferences. As mentioned this is a hobby NOT a profession; and some of us occasionally have a bad day. Could we consider perhaps some sort of driver liaison in each class that would be the point man (or woman) to go to regarding on-track issues concerning drivers in the other class? Then the liaison would then talk to the driver in question, so it would a FV liaison to a FV driver and a FF liaison to a FF driver. Alternatively perhaps we could get the RDC (Racing Drivers Club) involved to do this. Unfortunately this could rapidly degrade into a pregnant doging and whining session which would guarantee immediate failure and generate (more?) dissent. As Mike Smith mentioned at the Group 4 Drivers meeting at Laguna, we have to live with this grouping for the foreseeable future so we should try to do something to make it work better.

Side note to Dave FF50, really appreciate your inputs here. I don't recall (or recognize) any other Ford drivers posting any relevant comments however. Is there a FF site that is discussing the same issue, and if so, can you (will you) provide the URL? Thanks.

-Jim

[dave FF 50-aka "Harm"]

Jim, great post. I think the driver liaison idea has tremendous merit. That way the drivers who are experiencing discord are taken out of the equation and a non bias party can falcilitate. I like it. As a board member of the RDC, I will mention this next meeting, but I think your idea is best. Less bureaucracy.

As for other Ford drivers, they tend to visit: www.apexspeed.com/forums/
This is a open wheel forum, world wide. The main issue in most of the country is not one or two drivers ruinning a race, but the fact that they only HAVE one or two drivers in FF. They would love our overcrowding problem. In most of the county, all the open wheelers and sports racers are lumped into one big mess, I mean group. Until we have over 30+ Fords AND 30+ Vees and can justifiy our own groups, like in the past, we should be happy to have each other to avoid being in group 2 with FA,FM, FC,FSCCA,CSR,DSR,ASR,S2,SS2, who did I miss?

A lot of regions are switching from SCCA to SMCA: Spec Miata Club of America:)
dave

[dave FF 50-aka "Harm"]

Back up for what I just mentioned:

anthonywill3
Senior Member




Join Date: September 8th, 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 136 FC/FS/FM/FA/F1000 dropped from MARRS Series?

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To interested parties:
I received and interesting email this morning from someone who attended the Wash DC region comp committee last night, looks like a few open wheel classes got nixed from the MARRS series next year... read below

hello everyone,

welllll, we had the comp committee meeting last night to decide run groups for next year.

you will be happy. its is back running with another it class for 2007.

the run groups are:
1 - open wheel (restricted)
2 - srx7/it7/ssb/ssc
3 - srf/csr/dsr
4 - sm
5 - small bore/t3/t4
6 - ssm
7 - its/itr/ita
8 - big bore/P1/P2/t1/t2/SP*
9 - itb/itc

* SP= autocross class street prepared, basically built to it specs, with less engine restrictions.

we have run with ita before, and i am sure we can play nice together. great (and competitive!) group of drivers in that class.

unfortunately, to get this grouping, we had to make the marrs series a "restricted regional" series of events. putting all the open wheels together in one run group made sense from a numbers game, but introduced some safety concerns that resulted in dropping fs, fm, fc, fa and f1000 from the marrs series. not a situation anyone really wanted, but given the large size of all the run groups except the open wheel ones, something had to finally be done to address it. there was considerable debate on the run group topic this year to probe all the various options. excluding classes was definitely not a decision taken lightly, and not something i particularly wanted to do.

i will be sorting out any car number conflicts with the ita drivers rep in the near future. conflicts will be resolved by who has qualified to have the number longer.

Looks like SCCA regional competitors (DC region any way) will have to look for another place to play... The Formula Pro Racing series is fun, competitive, and well run, and the F2000 series had a great first year (for the FC guys).
Where will you play???

[dave FF 50-aka "Harm"]

And this off the Spec Miata web site regarding the same item:
The news just keeps getting worse. dave


Connie 62
Member

Region: WDC
Car #: 1
Year : 91
Posts: 46
Status: Offline
posted 11-10-2006 11:20 AM

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The open wheel drivers have submitted a written request that the BOD vacate the vote taken by the committee to exclude the large (fastest) formula classes. The request asks that this be sent back to committee "send the matter back to the committee for further work, taking into consideration track capacity and safety requirements, actual experience with entries, and fair treatment for all members."

As you know, road racers are not well represented on the BOD. It would be unfortunate if they decided to intervene. Expansion of the MARRS series was being hindered by two lightly subscribed open wheels groups. The FV driver rep refused to be combined on the track with any group other than F500. There were essentially NO F500 entries for 2006. Thus he was demanding a separate group for an average of 10 FV cars. This was considered by the Comp committee as unreasonable. Solutions were limited to eliminating FV, or eliminating the super fast open wheel cars (FA, FC, FS, FM, and a new class F1000) and inserting FV into the remaining class (FF, CF,) Since sports racers were moved to SRF, the resulting open wheel class will still probably have less than 20 cars per MARRS race.

We will need to contact BOD members and remind them that this solution was arrived at BY THE ROAD RACE DRIVERS after years attempting to find other solutions. It was not an easy decision, but determined to be best overall for the MARRS series. It was simply impossible to accomodate the demands of all drivers, so the compromise reached was intended to impact the smallest number of drivers.

I will post the date and location of the next BOD meeting if this issue is on the agenda.

--------------------
Jim Thill
#1 SSM
#60 SM
Thrillz Racing

[sweenrace]

how about this for a fun solution to the issue and a twist on Jim's idea => have a team championship. Each team consists of 1 vee and 1 ford or maybe 2 vees/fords and their combined finishing positions make up the team points. It would be fun but the real idea is to get some camaraderie going between the two groups. With further interaction there is bound to be better communication

Ian

[qposner]

WOW! Talk about giving backmarker fords even more incentive to block the lead vees!

[dave FF 50-aka "Harm"]

Ian, I LIKE it. 2 Fords+2 Vees allow one drop (best 3 of the 4 car team count). Call the championship the open wheeled small bore championship (OWSBC) . Make first prize a hundred grand. Wait, that going off the deep end, but I do like the idea. Maybe every team puts in $40 per race ($10 each driver). Every driver who want to compete puts his/her name into a hat and gets drawn. Or a captian is picked and then s/he draft the remaining team members. Last place to first, just like the NFL.
dave

[brian]

I really like Jim's idea of class rep's to resolve driving issues. Certainly better than mine. As for the team thing, you guys need to find something else to smoke. As for the DC issue it may be a view of the future, but it sounds like the vee rep was being unreasonable. I know Bob Tupper, that's doesn't seem to be like him. so I don't really know the real story.